Sandra Bernhard Will Do 'Whatever It Takes' for Truth

Sandra Bernhard isn't one for conversational detours or verbal frills. This may not surprise many. Bernhard needs not a garden of adjectives and imagery from which to pick; she's got a pocket full of ammunition in the form of pointed observations. And let it be known: she's got rapid fire.

What may come as a surprise, however, is the warmth in her personal delivery. She's articulate without pretension, engaging with reciprocal curiosity and ever-present with a calm cool.

Roughly 30 years into her career, and the Flint, Michigan native doesn't want for momentum. Bernhard releases her new album, 'Whatever It Takes,' on August 25, the subject of which brought her into our New York City studio. For the woman of many crowns -- comedian, actress, singer, author and mother, among them -- she claimed one more over the course of conversation. "I'm a warrior," she tells Spinner.

We won't argue.

Let's start with the impetus behind 'Whatever It Takes.' When and why did you decide to embark on this effort?

[Modern English's] Ted Mason approached me at a benefit we were mutually performing at. I was hanging out watching him perform with the band he put together for the event and I said, "This is really fun and really cool," and he goes, "You know, I'm trying to put together an album and I'm looking for someone with a really strong point of view to kind of be the front person who could collaborate with me." I said, "Give me a call," and of course I didn't expect to hear from him but he called me the next day, and we started getting together and collaborating on the songs and the music and the ideas. He is very plugged to a lot of very successful African artists and world musicians, and we wanted to do an album that was very reflective of what we were hoping to be the end of the Bush administration -- where everyone was at politically and culturally and emotionally, which I thought was very shut down and repressed. The album is very reflective of these feelings and being able to emotionally and spiritually travel around the world, literally, without a passport.

Tell me about the recording sessions. How did the writing, musically and lyrically, come together?

Well, everything was done before we went into the studio in terms of the actual songs. Ted did would come over and we would have sessions where we worked on the music, and he'd go off and perfect it and the lyrics, and we'd do rough recordings of it on the computer, on Garage Band. Then we put it together with studio time, which was very limited -- it was a very small budget. A lot of the musicians weren't even in town. They recorded stuff from their different countries of origin and then sent it over. Some people were here; [Pretenders frontwoman] Chrissie Hynde, who is a good friend of mine, happened to be in town when we were recording some of the vocals. She came in and was really cool and did one of the songs. The Kronos Quartet and the String Players were involved, and I was there for some of that which was amazing.

It's a very different music industry today than when you started releasing albums nearly two decades ago.

I've done a couple albums over the years and I had record deals with companies. There's a lot of money to burn through, there's a lot of big talk, a lot of BS, and ultimately if they don't stay behind a project it never goes anywhere. Whereas something like this you take control, you can push it on the internet, put it on iTunes. It's a very liberating feeling to take control of your career and your destiny, and just reach the people. That's really a revolution. Of course you want to make money from your projects but being a live performer who goes out on the road, has a following, there's always an outlet for my work. I'm not just some young artist who's like, "I've written some really good songs what do I do now?" I'm a warrior.



Chrissie Hynde sings vocals, as you mentioned, on the opening track, 'All Around.' What do you admire most about her as a performer, and perhaps similarly, as a person?

She really had a lot of gumption and strength to leave Ohio as a teenager, go to England and pursue her career. She was a waitress, she was from a working class background and her work has always maintained that sensibility. She's really been able to mine the experiences of being from the outside and someone who really cares about the realness of life. She's hardcore, she doesn't flatter, she isn't someone who kisses peoples asses -- she's the real deal. She's just that kind of artist -- she's off to South America or off to India, and comes back and the next thing you know she's created a reflection of her experience. That's why we're such good friends because we both come from that same place.

One song, 'Why So Blue,' features a call and response that calls attention to violence, particularly that of women in Eastern countries. How important is it for you to bring awareness to women's issues, human issues even, particularly in other countries?

I always try to input my work with, in a subtle way, all the major issues that we're facing. The best way to be a representative of independence is by being a woman who really takes care of herself and isn't dependent on the patriarchy and the male-driven culture. You have to speak it and be it and live it. Of course you want to reach in and help everybody along the way that you meet, and I do try to do that, but it's hard to really get in there and crack the plaster off of cultures because they're ancient and they're set in their ways. But everyday I try to infuse in my daughter and the people around me with that philosophy. And surely when I travel I'm aware of what's going on and try to reflect on it because even here in America we're still ... just look at Sonia Sotomayor. Her whole hearing was laced with sexism and racism. The white man has got to let go; This isn't the world that they're living in anymore. This is a multicultural experience and everyone should have a chance to be a part of it and prosper within it.

What role did rock 'n' roll play in your life?

Growing up in the '60s and '70s, I have 3 older brothers so I was a little too young to go out and do my anti-war chants about Vietnam. But they were all there and of course they all dabbled in hallucinogenic experiences. So I was always kind of watching it through their eyes, and music has always played the most important part of my life, from the time I was a kid listening to Barbara Streisand and Broadway tunes and then evolving into the Detroit scene. I grew up in Flint, Michigan, so I was on the percipience of Motown on my scratchy AM radio. Without Motown, without R&B, there would be no rock 'n' roll.

We moved to Arizona when I was 10. It was a big open space and it was a bit alienating, so music was always a backdrop of that experience and kept me feeling like I had some friends. There was a radio station in Phoenix, I think it started up in the late '60s called KDKB, and it's when the disc jockey's really started to talk about revolution and the world, and then they'd drop in the songs and do their little kind of rap about what was going on in Vietnam

What was the first album you ever bought with your own money?

It was Carol King's 'Tapestry.' That was a good one.

What was the first concert you ever attended?

For sure, the first concert I went to was with my friend Diane Adler. Her dad took us to see Simon and Garfunkel. We were I guess 12 or 13 in Phoenix, and I wore this blue wool pleated skirt with this yellow, blue and white striped turtleneck sweater. They just sat onstage and played their guitars and we were just, like, losing our minds.

I'm going to go back a little bit. It's very well known among Tori Amos fans that she sang backup for you on your recording of 'Little Red Corvette.' Tell me the story behind that collaboration.

It was the live album of 'Without You I'm Nothing' that was recorded, and we went back to the studio because it needed overdubs. The producer on it was good friends with Tori, but I had known her when she was a waitress [in Los Angeles]. She came into the studio and she goes "Do you remember me, Tori from ...?" When she came in to do the backup, and this was like 20 years ago, she still hadn't made it yet. So she just came in and did her beautiful thing, and then the next thing I know, there's Tori Amos, you know, and that's how this business is. I've met a lot of people along the way, and all of a sudden I turn around and they've eclipsed me and gone on to greater fame and more money, and I'm like "Hey, hold on a minute! I knew you in ..."

Do you still follow her career?

Oh, absolutely.



Are there any female musicians that you sort of feel are stepping up and challenging the rock canon, or at the very least making great music today?

I have to be honest -- I haven't seen a lot of the newer artists that have surprised me. I still kind of go with my old standbys. We just went to see Stevie Nicks and Fleetwood Mac. I actually interviewed [Stevie] when I was pregnant with my daughter, for MTV, and so last summer we went to see Stevie at Jones Beach, and Cicely, my daughter, drew her this really cool picture. She gave it to her and Stevie said, "I've gotten a lot of pictures from people and I can tell you, this one's actually good." There's just certain people that ... I don't know if there's ever going to be another Stevie Nicks or another Chrissie Hynde or Joni Mitchell or Laura Nyro. I don't know what this generation is going to produce or if the environment will allow that person to evolve in the way that those artists got to evolve.

It was mentioned several times when Michael Jackson passed away that he was probably the last major ...

Superstar.

Exactly. I mean, Lady GaGa is hot right now but is she going to be the next Madonna or Michael Jackson?

I would be surprised. The public is very mercurial, and every day there's somebody new coming along that gets hyped. But I'll tell you somebody who I think is longstanding is Pink. She has managed to work around the edges of hype and she's done enough now -- she's had enough material come out -- that she's proven herself. As a performer, she's amazing. That's really where it separates the men from the boys -- when you hit that stage, and if you can perform live and can really bring something to it.

Well, you and Pink certainly have one thing in common: your dislike for Sarah Palin. What do you make of her resignation as governor of Alaska?

Everything around her has been very cynical ... choosing her as the vice presidential candidate, I think that they were really just grabbing for straws. She was somebody that the public would find "hot," you know. She's hot because she doesn't look like an older, elderly statesman, like a Hillary Clinton. We're so used to reality television and that sort of like gum-chewing dumb broad kind of thing. She just fit in with it. I don't really know what she's up to. I can't imagine that in two years from now that people will still be interested in her, but we don't know. We'll see how the soap opera unfolds.

You were an avid Barack Obama supporter during the campaign. What do you think of his term as president, thus far?

I think he's doing a great job. He represents something that's really important for this country, and you'd have to be made of steel to go in and absolutely stick completely to your plan. You have to have the support of the Congress and the Senate, even though the Democrats are sort of in control. There's been such a backlash to the liberal moniker that it's hard for people to go in and say "No, we're not going to take this path anymore." Under the circumstances he's doing the best he can. Hopefully this health care plan will pass and he'll be able to take breather, because I'm sure he's getting exhausted out there. It's almost like he's still campaigning.

In an interview with Joni Mitchell, who I know you have reverence for, she said that early on she never considered herself a feminist. But as time passed and her career evolved, she certainly defines herself as a feminist now. Do you define yourself as a feminist?

Well, I was really a product of the feminist movement. I was very young when Ms. magazine came out -- Gloria Steinem and all the ladies -- and it just became part of my DNA. I was really lucky to have grown up in a liberal household and be able to kind of formulate my own path as a woman. I feel like I'm post-feminist, because all these women did the work for me, but I think I forged out new avenues -- kind of crossing genres and breaking the status quo about sexuality. I think, in my way, I've opened new ideas to people but yes, I just take it for granted that of course I'm a feminist.

Why do you think that feminism is another dirty F-word?

In the day that feminists were thought of as strong, strident and kind of hardcore, and it kind of took away the feminine experience. I don't know ... it was too arch for a lot of people. I mean, I've managed to take it and transform it into something else, which is why I refer to myself as post-feminist because I don't think you have to limit being beautiful or taking care of yourself or dressing in any sort of way. I mean, I prefer wearing a bra but I guess if you get your boob job you can run around and burn your bras again. It's just the hardcore vibe that frightened a lot of people.

Many female musicians I've talked to -- PJ Harvey, Patti Smith, Bjork, Chrissie even -- shun the "woman in rock" headline. While I understand and respect why, some feel it's regressive in terms of women's issues. As sort of an honorary woman in rock yourself, why do you think it's important to either support or shun that headline?

I think some are just tired of the conversation but we always have to come back around to it when you have women like Sarah Palin out there. You've got to kind of come back and say "Yeah, it's OK, I'm a feminist, this is what I stand for." I'm pretty clear cut about it and there's a certain amount of pride in being a woman of independent thinking and means. But I think it has to go beyond that at this point -- we have to embrace the larger picture of all the people that need to be brought in and accepted and embraced.

As someone who is closely aligned with the gay population, I'm curious to know what you consider to be the biggest threat to the gay community.

I don't think there's one threat to the gay community. I think it's more of just a general philosophy going back once again to the sort of white male Republican hypocritical trip that has been going on in this country for so many years. They feel that they have to uphold the morals of this country, and it's all hidden behind the cloak of religion and God. That's all falling away obviously, with their own sort of experiences that have been revealed recently. Eventually people are just going to have to live together. We all live on the planet; it's just that we have to make it work.

Many in the gay community -- Perez Hilton comes to mind -- sort of champion the idea of "come out, come out, wherever you are," particularly with celebrities. Do you feel that it's important for LGBTQ folks to proclaim, in any way, their sexuality?

I just think it's important to just be comfortable with your sexuality. Most people aren't. Whether you're gay or straight, there's just this constant need to just figure it out. People should figure out what makes them comfortable, and then just be who they are. Everything else just sort of happens naturally. For me, I've never made any sort of big statement because I felt like my work and my persona kind of played on both sides purposely, but it was obvious that hey, whatever works for you works for me. That's more my philosophy.

And sexuality is so fluid ...

Exactly.

How could you define it without making addendums?

Yeah, but when people pretend to be something else, then it's like you want to somehow say it: "Stop being a total phony."

Which brings me to my next question: Katy Perry's 'I Kissed a Girl.' There's a lot of controversy surrounding that song. The Gossip's Beth Ditto accused her of riding on the back of gay culture.

Well, what I find weird is there was another song called 'I Kissed a Girl.'

By Jill Sobule.

Yeah, Jill Sobule. I was like, "All these chicks are kissing all these chicks, what's up with this s---?" I mean ... I don't see anyone kissing! I just find it totally absurd and it's like, very juvenile to boot. "I kissed a girl. Ooohhh." It's totally unsexy. That's my biggest complaint about it. If you're going to kiss a girl, let's see some action. Let's see Fanny Ardant and Marianne Faithfull kissing. Let's see some European hot sexy. Let's see some real women going at it. It's all these little "Oh, I kissed a girl, oops" ... it's just such a turnoff.

First of all, how could she take that title? Did she not realize that there was that song, like, years ago?

Titles aren't copyrightable.

This is what I find so disgusting about the entertainment business. It's like, now people forget about things like years later, and nobody remembers that somebody had a song or an idea that already covered that territory.

Right now, gay marriage is certainly a very hot topic. You've been with your partner for nearly 10 years. Is marriage for you?

No, I'm sort of just anti-marriage period. I think it ruins a good relationship. Once you get married, it's like you kind of sink into this quicksand of boredom. There's something about not being married that keeps ... that you're on your toes a little bit more, that it's a little sexier. If I was with a man, I don't think I'd want to get married. I just find it more interesting to stay just together, as you know, "lovers."

As a woman and a mother, what is it that you hope for your daughter?

On a personal level, my girlfriend and I always try to impart to her the importance of being aware of other people's feelings, of not being exclusionary, of being accepting of the differences of everybody and being a really kind person. On a bigger, global experience, I just hope that the world has come to the place where we're taking care of the environment, of our health care and education, and doing things for people that make the world a more peaceful place. It's a daily struggle when you're raising a kid to keep them on the right path of compassion, really, above all.

My interpretation of your work is that you've always said things in truth, reflecting back something in society in a funny way, in hopes to inspire change. But many peg you as a loose canon. What is it that you won't go for? What topics aren't on the table for discussion?

I don't really talk about my daughter or my girlfriend. I talk about them in a funny, scripted way, but they're kind of off-limits in terms of like day-to-day. I just think that more than anything, I don't talk about the mundane. If I can't really bring something new to an idea or a topic that's reflecting pop culture or politics, I'll just kind of leave it alone. Certain things just get beaten over the head. I haven't performed since Michael Jackson died, but I don't know, there's not a whole lot I would say about it just because it's just been beaten to death.

What do you think it takes to be successful as an entertainer today?

Honestly, I can't answer that because I haven't really seen anybody artistically who's tried to like, sprout up through the concrete. If you're willing to go on a reality show and just be a total fool and spill your guts, you'll have that kind of limited success. But I don't think those are people who wanted to be in this for artistic impulses to begin with. If you're a real artist, if you're somebody who really wants to say something, I guess it's still just the old-fashioned way -- you've got to roll up your sleeves and do your work.

Was that work ethic instilled in you at an early age?

Yeah, and I had a very rich fantasy life too. I kind of projected what I wanted to do with my career just by hanging out and thinking about it and imagining it, and play acting since I was a little kid. A lot of people that I talk to that are successful really saw their future kind of unfolding in the way that it did.

As time has passed, are you more of an optimist or a pessimist?

I'm definitely more of an optimist. I don't think I've ever been anything but. I never consider my work to be cynical -- it's definitely laced with irony. But that's what makes life interesting: the dichotomy and the clashes within ourselves and within our relationships with people. I'm definitely not a cynic.

If you could go back and revisit Sandra Bernhard from the early '80s, what would advice or tips would you give her, knowing what you know now?

I don't think there's much I could say to that person, because without that person going through the evolution she went through, I wouldn't be who I am today. I guess everybody makes little mistakes along the way but I'm still in it, I'm still doing it, I still have a following. Every time I walk onstage I get better and better at it. I like the person I was when I started off. I look back and you know, it's like looking at your kid sister or your niece -- you're like, "You're cute, you're a fun kid." I liked myself then and I like myself now.