Ben Lee Talks Fatherhood, Therapy and Comedic Timing on The Interface

When last we spoke with Ben Lee, the Aussie singer-songwriter was wrapping up his eighth album, 'Deeper Into Dream,' which he released on Oct. 11 via Dangerbird Records.

Several months later, we invited the soft-spoken 33-year-old into our Los Angeles studio to perform songs from the album for an Interface taping. Afterward, we sat down with him to talk about his impact on the world, shooting comedy videos with wife Ione Skye and Margaret Cho, and how fatherhood and the death of his therapist have influenced his career.

Last time we spoke, you were just finishing up your album. What's happened since March?

I finished the record, took my baby to India for her first time, worked on a lot of other music and sort of put the record out of my head. I mean, now that it's coming out I'm starting to think about it again. When you're making it, you're so consumed with it and then it's best to just let it be for a little while, so I'm just sort of reconsidering it again now.


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What are you thinking?

Yeah, it's weird, you know, because making albums, they're like purging something. It all comes out and you don't quite know exactly what you're making, and it's pretty scary doing it. Now I'm hearing it and it sounds cohesive, I guess, but like a dream. It's like I don't quite know what it is, or what it means, or what it's meant to feel like, so I don't know. I'm just listening to it.

As the album's title suggests, you've done a lot of dream analysis. What did you learn from it?

I guess I did one of the least cool things you could do, which is make a record inspired by therapy, but we're in L.A. Anyway, I met this amazing dream therapist, Jan Lloyd, who actually passed away last August, and that was kind of the moment where it clicked that I sort of want to make a record as a tribute to him and what he taught me about dreams. It's not that there's one specific lesson I learned about dreams, it's more that it opened me up to my unconscious and to the fact that I guess I was going through life thinking that I knew who I was, and looking at my dreams made me realize I actually had very little idea. I still don't have a very good idea, but at least I can admit it now.

Did you think that recording the album would help you further investigate that?

In my career, it's been pretty hard for me to make heads or tails of what -- like if my audience wants one particular thing, or labels -- none of it seems to like work in a like careerist way. I just generally take the attitude that I make records about what I'm interested in at the time. So it wasn't conscious that I was thinking, "I want to explore this in music," it was just that the music became about what I was interested in and what I was talking to my friends about.

Right, it seems like it's been the case throughout your career. One of your most popular songs talks about not getting played on the radio.

Yeah, it seems really boring to me to be an artist unless I can be really idiosyncratic and personal about me and my life.

That's interesting because when we last spoke, you had said that this was the darkest and weirdest album to date.

Ever, by anyone [laughs].

But from an outside perspective, it doesn't really seam so weird.

Well, it's got a lot of questions on it. It doesn't have so many answers. A lot of music is like, "I believe in this and I believe in that and I'm right and you're wrong." I don't have much of that on this record. It's more like, "I'm in this, what is it?" So, in that way, I guess it feels weird to me. I guess that's a judgment on it -- it's not weird, it's just vulnerable and there's a lot of things I explored musically. I mean, there's no real hit-type-songs on the record or a single-type-thing. It's not a record designed to please an audience, it's a record designed to express me.

And this period you're in.

Exactly. The dark stuff probably has more to do with the death of my therapist and actually processing that death and allowing sadness, grief and mourning to be part of the musical texture, and not to push that stuff aside in favor of being positive. Which has often been a fall-back way of conducting myself.
Tell us a little bit about going to India with your daughter.

Well, I've been going to India for a lot of years. I got married there, and it's been a huge part of my personal, emotional, spiritual journey. There's a little temple in the south started by this person called Narayani Amma, who's made a really big impact on my life. So yeah, bringing Goldie there is like a dream come true for me. Just to see her there -- it's one of those things like, I definitely don't want to raise my kids with any kind of dogmatic, "You have to believe this," thing. I just want to present them with options.

Fatherhood has also become a big part of your career because it changes what you can and can't do, or want to do.

I suppose the first thing about being a dad is your time is so limited, in terms of the time you have to yourself and stuff so, for me, I really wanted to make it count. Making an album and promoting it and doing interviews and playing shows is all time away from my baby, so, more than ever before, I wanted to feel that there was an authenticity to the experience. It made me take it seriously, I wanted the album to really have heart. And also just hanging out with a baby, because babies are so enlightened. They're so pure emotionally. They're not neurotic yet, and they don't have big defense systems and all that, so for me, hanging out with a baby influenced my creativity, it made me want to be more authentic as a human being. I mean, it's a balance because having a baby and having a family makes you want to support the family, and you want to make money, but I also take really seriously what I do, and I don't want to do something particularly crass or commercial just to support my family. I want to support my family doing what I love and being myself, so you're just constantly trying to strike that balance and weighing opportunities.

Right, so what are you planning for the album?

Well, I don't know about music videos for this record, but my wife has been directing these comedic shorts based around the theme of dreams. The first one is up now on Funnyordie.com, it's called 'Ben Lee in Therapy With Margaret Cho,' and Margaret Cho plays my therapist. It's kind of like, you know, it's ridiculous and absurd. Margaret wrote it, and Ione directed it and I'm going to do a few more of these kinds of things, exploring the subject matter of dreams and try to find new ways to sort of just be creative, because it's a pretty blank page now, in terms of the right way to promote a record. I don't know if anyone has an answer to that. I'm definitely not doing the traditional "going out on the road for six months and in-stores and non-stop handshaking around the world" to sell my record. I'm just hoping that I made it from a very pure place, and I'm curious to see what happens with it, I guess. I don't have really huge expectations. I just want to watch it unfold. When you say you didn't want to make music videos ...

Nowadays, unless a music video is genius, I don't know where you'd watch it or why you'd watch it. With Facebook and Twitter, people are more inclined to share. I know I share funny videos more than I'd share a really great music video. It feels like it's losing ground, but I love comedy and I have all these friends that are involved with it, and it just seemed like that would be a fun little forum to keep exploring this concept of dreaming.

You definitely have a lot of comedic ties.

Yeah it's just really fun. Comedy and music are so connected because of the timing and I always find it really inspiring.

But then there's like requirements that your fans have of you -- maybe there's no forum for music videos, but people still want to see your music video.

No one I know wants to see music videos. Maybe they do, people on the internet. I mean, I feel like what fans want is contact. They want the artist to be making stuff, and they want to be consuming it. I don't know if they care what it is. I think you see it with bands like Radiohead or Arcade Fire, they can create in a whole different mode, and their fans are interested in what they have to say. I think that's more the model for being an artist now. It's not about following a cookie-cutter type thing, it's about continually being creative and putting work out there and letting people absorb it.

And then there are requests that your fans are gonna have forever, like, "When are the Bens going to tour America?"

Yeah, I mean, I'm as interested in those questions as anyone. I would love to one day do another Bens tour. I have no idea if that'll happen, but it's an honor if people are interested enough to want it again, or want you to play a certain song. It doesn't always mean that I can do it just to appease them, but it's nice to be thought of in that way, you know?

Because your personal growth has been so tied with your music, when you look back on your career, what do you think?

I still feel like I'm just getting the hang of the whole thing, playing music, writing songs and who I am and standing on a stage and feeling OK about it and not worrying what everyone's thinking. This is about growing up, and I feel like I'm just getting into it, in a way, so I don't spend a huge amount of time reflecting. I'm proud of the records I've made -- some more than others -- and I've done a lot of hard work and I feel proud of that, but I'm always, like most artists, focused on what's next.

It's interesting for fans, because a lot of them grew up with you.

Yeah, yeah, no, I know. The other day I was at [L.A. restaurant] Poquito Mas and someone came up and he's like, "Man, I started my little band recording on a four track because of Noise Addict," and I was like, "Wow!" And he even remembers that still, it's really cool. I mean that was a time where it was a little harder to access music, it wasn't like you could just download -- you had to go like to your record store and explore it. I feel like it's an incredible thing for us to be interwoven, musicians and listeners. And musicians are fans too, so music is interwoven with our lives. I know for me, when I think of Jonathan Richman, or Pavement,or Nirvana, I just think of the way my life would be different if I hadn't been exposed to those albums. It's pretty mind blowing to think that there must be someone that I'm on the other side of that equation for.

You once said that a Jonathan Richman album made you realize that you didn't need to go through catharsis on an album, but now it seems like that's exactly what 'Deeper Into Dream' is.

I've said so much s--- and I don't know what I was particularly referring to, but maybe the lightness. Even these songs we're doing here, I try not to overthink things. Ultimately, an artist like Jonathan Richman and anyone that kind of came from that punk spirit, is about experience. It's not about perfection, it's not about showbiz, it's about, "We're here, we're people in a room and we're going to have an experience together." I think that's probably what I was talking about, just having a lightness to it. Having a light touch to it.

And for the fans that grew up with you, now you're a father and you're releasing a record influenced by being a father and also serious self work. That's really powerful for people.

Yeah I hope so. I love the idea. It sounds very convincing when someone says, "I'm putting out music to make the world a better place," but, ultimately, we're doing it because it's fun. I make records about stuff I'm interested in for me and my friends and my family, and I have fun doing it. I hope that people get something out of it, but what that is and how it affects people and how people absorb the music is so far from my control. Music that's touched me in certain ways I'm sure could not have been conceived of by the creator. I mean the creator of the music, not "The Creator" [laughs]. The almighty god of music. That's such a mystery to me, the way music will affect the audience, so I just keep following my own personal compass of my passion.